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Post by sjfaerlind on May 4, 2014 17:42:06 GMT -6
SJ modern society is full of morons. it is a shame but I have learned to deal with it. hahahaha  I prefer to think that modern society is full of people just doing the best they can with what they currently know...lol aaannd Egyptian mythology is pretty cool too in my opinion. I loved what they did with it in that old TV series "Stargate". |
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Post by Liv the Librarian on May 6, 2014 10:33:30 GMT -6
Hmm, I don't see why the heroine's journey would need to be different than the hero's journey. The reason the heroine's journey is different from the hero's is because men and women are different. The modern era has this confusion that to be feminist is to be like a man, whereas that's actually the exact opposite of feminism and is demeaning and undermining what it is to be a strong woman. Men and women may be of the same species, but we are not alike in our souls, in our thinking, in our deep dreams and desires, we are made for different purposes, and so, our journeys are also different. A lot of people criticize the monomyth of the hero's journey as being sexist because of the role of the feminine in it, but they miss the point entirely. The hero's journey is made from a male's perspective, and so the female role in that is often a prize to be won. This isn't sexist towards the female of the tale, because ultimately it is the hero that has to prove himself to her, and therein lies the difference between the hero's and heroine's journeys.... Men need to prove themselves to the world and to women.... Women do not need to prove themselves to anyone. The heroine's journey is about unlocking what is already there, what is sleeping and needs to be awakened (Snow White, Sleeping Beauty etc). Realizing their potential, what they are, and there's a reason for this. A woman becomes a woman through the forces of nature; one day she is a child, then the next day she wakes up, sees blood and she realizes; she's now a woman. Men do not have this. While hair might grow in new places, voices may deepen etc, their attitudes can remain childlike and in older cultures (and still throughout the world) it was the job of those around them to 'force' boys into becoming men and realizing they are grown individuals and need to be of value to their people. This is where the circumcision comes into play. It was always, always intended to be an act that occurs when a boy is around 13 or 14 years old (it is a relatively new thing that it is now performed when the boy is an infant and therefore remembers nothing of it, thusly missing the point of it's original intent), and in many cultures this is still performed. While we might look at this as cruel and savage, there is a purpose to it in that culture. As a girl realizes she is a woman through her first period, through blood, boys are forced to experience the same kind of awakening, also with blood. Circumcision was there to remind them, you are no longer boys, you are men, your body is different now, and the pain is intended as a reminder of that day. Circumcision is used still in many stories for moments of realization and 'growing up' with heroes. Severing of the past.... Luke Skywalker losing his hand when he finds out Darth Vader is his father, or even in Game of Thrones, (Season 3 spoiler) Jaime losing his hand just after being told "you're nothing without your daddy, and your daddy ain't here.... Never forget that." etc.... It's the same purpose; then and now, past and present, child and adult. It's about cutting away the past, and therefore your former/ childlike self, and becoming a man. Women don't have this ordeal, they don't have to go on a quest to become a woman, nature decides when it's time, and this is why women are always so associated with the Earth. Mother Earth, etc, their nature is the same as the Earth itself, and that is why women were always a force to be protected, because women are the key to life itself. The heroine's journey is more intuitive than men's, more about seeing themselves for what they are (hence the use of mirrors in so many tales). They might still go on grand journeys, they may even slay dragons, but it will never be in the same way, or mean the same thing as the hero's tale reflects. The unfortunate thing is that there is a lot of information about the hero's journey, it is the subject that has been discussed the most, and not as much about heroine's, but they are out there. Sorry if I'm waffling, it's a subject I'm very much interested in and read a great deal about lol Anything myth and I'm all over it  I don't entirely agree with this. The modern era of feminism (at least the parts of feminism that I'm aware of, and there are many), does not strive for women to be more man-like. It strives for equality between the two genders on a fundamental basis, like being paid the same amount for doing the same work, men not being able to tell a woman she can't get birth control or an abortion. Feminism strives for equality while still holding onto a woman's individuality. Women are not automatically women as soon as they begin menstruating. We are physically fit to bare children, but we are not women. Just as a boy getting circumcised at 14 is not a man yet. He may have had his blood and a shiny new penis, but he's not a man. Girls DO go on quests to become "women". We see it all the time in stories about women. It's not a physical thing to become an adult, it's an emotional and mental and spiritual thing that may never happen, and every person, whether male or female, goes on that journey. Also, viewing women as a prize to collect is not quite sexist, but it's demeaning. We're not property, not something to gain or win. You don't go out and "get" yourself a woman lol. I mean some people do, but they're usually not the type of men I associate with. That's another thing about feminism; relationships and sexuality are intended to be consensual. "Getting" a woman is borderline rape-culture, suggesting that you might "win" her even against her will. I'm by no means offended, but I definitely don't agree. |
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Post by Cascador on May 6, 2014 12:09:19 GMT -6
I don't think that's what she meant. It's one thing to become a woman, and another to become an adult. But in older times, there was no such thing as a teenager. You were a woman when you first bled, as in ready to make children. That is what the people thought. That's how you were classified as a woman. And sure, 14 year olds became wives to men much older than them. They couldn't be girls anymore. They had to become women. And concerning circumcision. They often did this in tribes, where they felt that it was time that boys had to become men. Circumcision gave them a similar experience girls had when they first bled as a reminder that they weren't boys anymore. They had to become men and work for the tribe, and often underwent other harsh trials to prove themselves, which is reflected in the hero's journey. It's about boys becoming men.
Concerning the 'prize'. Well the damsel in distress was never a prize in the first place. If the hero rescued the damsel in distress then he had proven himself to her. Then he had proved himself a man. The story symbolizes how a boy becomes a man. But this shows how women were above them, because they were already women. While when the story starts, they hero are just boys. In Zelda, she is often the Damsel in Distress. But if you look at the over all story, then you realize how important she is. She is everything. Hyrule needed to be saved, so how does Link do that. By saving her, in other words... She is Hyrule. In Star Wars you can see how important Padmé is as the woman who needed rescuing. Because as soon as she dies, everything falls apart. The galaxy is doomed, because she is the galaxy. She is life. As she gives birth to Luke and Leia, she sets the foundation that will become a new order for the Jedi and rebellion to save the galaxy. Again that just shows how important she is.
Concerning Feminism, Stardancer said the same, at least to me. That this is what feminism should be about, namely equality. The problem is that many women don't see feminism that way. They have a wrong image of it.
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Post by Liv the Librarian on May 6, 2014 12:16:22 GMT -6
"It's one thing to become a woman, and another to become an adult" I can agree with you there. I think the way we speak also gives way to some differences as to how our opinions are initially viewed. Though, I will argue that a boy becomes a man when his testicles descend, and not once he completes the "heroes journey". I don't think the woman is a prize, but I was just quoting what Stardancer said "and so the female role in that is often a prize to be won." and I disagreed with her as to whether or not that was sexist/degrading toward women. Many women do have the wrong view of feminism, but to say an over-generalized statement about modern feminism, lumping it all into one, is just as erroneous as those people who think becoming a strong woman means you need to be more man-like  |
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Post by Cascador on May 6, 2014 13:16:11 GMT -6
Well I can only tell you that in history, it was often just about when he was ready to lay with a woman. And society would decide that for him, because nature didn't do it, unlike with women. Women know by bleeding that they are ready. But we do not have that experience. It's that we lack that ordeal. Because people felt such an ordeal was necessary, to remember that we're not boys anymore. We're men. You see that with Jaime. He has his "circumcision", when he gets his hand cut off. That is what changed him, because he was always depended on his father, but in that moment he knew he couldn't. And what happened to him is his own reminder that he's no longer a boy. He's a man. Now of course he looks like a man, but still acted quite boyish. It's symbolism. Same with Luke, who experienced the same. |
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Post by Stardancer on May 6, 2014 14:42:09 GMT -6
The reason the heroine's journey is different from the hero's is because men and women are different. The modern era has this confusion that to be feminist is to be like a man, whereas that's actually the exact opposite of feminism and is demeaning and undermining what it is to be a strong woman. Men and women may be of the same species, but we are not alike in our souls, in our thinking, in our deep dreams and desires, we are made for different purposes, and so, our journeys are also different. A lot of people criticize the monomyth of the hero's journey as being sexist because of the role of the feminine in it, but they miss the point entirely. The hero's journey is made from a male's perspective, and so the female role in that is often a prize to be won. This isn't sexist towards the female of the tale, because ultimately it is the hero that has to prove himself to her, and therein lies the difference between the hero's and heroine's journeys.... Men need to prove themselves to the world and to women.... Women do not need to prove themselves to anyone. The heroine's journey is about unlocking what is already there, what is sleeping and needs to be awakened (Snow White, Sleeping Beauty etc). Realizing their potential, what they are, and there's a reason for this. A woman becomes a woman through the forces of nature; one day she is a child, then the next day she wakes up, sees blood and she realizes; she's now a woman. Men do not have this. While hair might grow in new places, voices may deepen etc, their attitudes can remain childlike and in older cultures (and still throughout the world) it was the job of those around them to 'force' boys into becoming men and realizing they are grown individuals and need to be of value to their people. This is where the circumcision comes into play. It was always, always intended to be an act that occurs when a boy is around 13 or 14 years old (it is a relatively new thing that it is now performed when the boy is an infant and therefore remembers nothing of it, thusly missing the point of it's original intent), and in many cultures this is still performed. While we might look at this as cruel and savage, there is a purpose to it in that culture. As a girl realizes she is a woman through her first period, through blood, boys are forced to experience the same kind of awakening, also with blood. Circumcision was there to remind them, you are no longer boys, you are men, your body is different now, and the pain is intended as a reminder of that day. Circumcision is used still in many stories for moments of realization and 'growing up' with heroes. Severing of the past.... Luke Skywalker losing his hand when he finds out Darth Vader is his father, or even in Game of Thrones, (Season 3 spoiler) Jaime losing his hand just after being told "you're nothing without your daddy, and your daddy ain't here.... Never forget that." etc.... It's the same purpose; then and now, past and present, child and adult. It's about cutting away the past, and therefore your former/ childlike self, and becoming a man. Women don't have this ordeal, they don't have to go on a quest to become a woman, nature decides when it's time, and this is why women are always so associated with the Earth. Mother Earth, etc, their nature is the same as the Earth itself, and that is why women were always a force to be protected, because women are the key to life itself. The heroine's journey is more intuitive than men's, more about seeing themselves for what they are (hence the use of mirrors in so many tales). They might still go on grand journeys, they may even slay dragons, but it will never be in the same way, or mean the same thing as the hero's tale reflects. The unfortunate thing is that there is a lot of information about the hero's journey, it is the subject that has been discussed the most, and not as much about heroine's, but they are out there. Sorry if I'm waffling, it's a subject I'm very much interested in and read a great deal about lol Anything myth and I'm all over it I don't entirely agree with this. The modern era of feminism (at least the parts of feminism that I'm aware of, and there are many), does not strive for women to be more man-like. It strives for equality between the two genders on a fundamental basis, like being paid the same amount for doing the same work, men not being able to tell a woman she can't get birth control or an abortion. Feminism strives for equality while still holding onto a woman's individuality. Women are not automatically women as soon as they begin menstruating. We are physically fit to bare children, but we are not women. Just as a boy getting circumcised at 14 is not a man yet. He may have had his blood and a shiny new penis, but he's not a man. Girls DO go on quests to become "women". We see it all the time in stories about women. It's not a physical thing to become an adult, it's an emotional and mental and spiritual thing that may never happen, and every person, whether male or female, goes on that journey. Also, viewing women as a prize to collect is not quite sexist, but it's demeaning. We're not property, not something to gain or win. You don't go out and "get" yourself a woman lol. I mean some people do, but they're usually not the type of men I associate with. That's another thing about feminism; relationships and sexuality are intended to be consensual. "Getting" a woman is borderline rape-culture, suggesting that you might "win" her even against her will. I'm by no means offended, but I definitely don't agree. Concerning Feminism, you're right that the thing to strive for is equality, but that's equality in itself. However, what is this in modern society? What do women have to do to do well in business? They have to either give up the idea of having a family (or have one only part time and let carers etc look after them while they're out working), they have to dress in business suits, like men, they have to be tough, non-emotional (you know as well as I how snooty certain men of business can get about 'hysterical women' etc), they have to act like men in order to do well, and never was this better embodied than in the 80s. Yes, this was brought about by men, forcing women to cut away their femininity to get to their level in business, politics etc. That is wrong and shouldn't happen, women should be able to embrace who they are regardless of their gender and not be discriminated. To fall pregnant in a career sense is a nightmare... Why? Why should it be? This all falls to problems in the workplace and is separate from what I'm talking about. I totally agree with you about equality, it is insane that women are not paid the same as men, given the same privileges etc, but that's equality, I'm speaking of feminism, and don't think for a second I'm saying all feminists are like this, I'm basing it on the several women I have known, many books I have read that stated an opinion I did not agree with. Feminists books that had lines like "why should I give up my life to have children? Let the men have children, I want to work and do my career like any man can. Why should we be the ones to give up everything to have a family?" etc etc. These man hating views that actually tried to cut away everything it was to be a woman. I've had conversations with friends where they scoff and go "I'm not giving up my career so some guy can get a family". That's their right to have that opinion, but boy, I can't say it sits well with me at all. And their view is not feminism, it's the opposite, they want to be men. My sister is such a person. She once told me she felt inferior while she was pregnant because she was still at university doing her PhD and in an all male environment. I just couldn't understand why she felt inferior, but she has always had this problem of having to be a woman in a man's world, and in order to be a woman she had to sacrifice one thing or the other.... Family or career. She first went for family, now a career, and there's no surprises that her children have been hurt by this. You can't have everything. I've heard some women claim how it is unfair that men are able to get everything, career and family, but that's not entirely true. If he works, he's away from the home and slightly detached from the rearing of children. He is a temporary figure, but some don't look at it this way, and I understand that. I just don't appreciate views that ultimately spout sexist talk, towards both men and women, in the name of feminism. I'm not trying to say all feminists are like that, because I'm a feminist and not like that lol I just think some people get the idea very, very confused. About menstruating, you're right about the mental aspect of being a woman. You're not mentally a woman as soon as you get your period, I was speaking about the physical aspect. Girls physically become women in a way boys do not become men, and the circumcision is the physical act to bring about a mental change, and this is related to the mythological stories also, and the difference between the male myths and female myths. In certain tribes in both South America and Africa, there is a common ritual that occurs when girls get their periods. They all have various techniques but there's one I've heard of the most. They take the girl, they dress her up in all her finery and then they make her sit inside this beautiful hut, all alone. They say nothing to her, but she is to think on the physical change that has happened to her, and she is to stay in there until she understands. What is it she has to understand? That she can now become a mother, that she can now carry and nurture life, that she is akin to the world itself and everything in it. This is the mental training to becoming a mother, that you spoke of. This also occurs, I was merely speaking of the physical and how it effects mythology. And this ritual I mentioned is a major pointer into the feminine tales of reflection. So often for women, it is for them to reflect and see themselves for what they are, or waken to the realization. Snow White and Sleeping Beauty falling asleep is symbolic of their fear of not wanting to be mothers yet, not able to cope with that fact. They fall asleep, and basically stay in a death like state, and in the Sleeping Beauty tale, everyone in the kingdom is effected (there are several versions of each of these tales, but I'm using the more general ones with common themes throughout), and that is because she is reflective of life itself. If she sleeps, the world sleeps, life doesn't grow. And when she is awakened, always by a man that she is willing to accept as her lover, that is her waking up, growing up and finally ready to embrace life again, in all that it carries. Again, this is one story, with one mental teaching, but I'm sure you get my point. I don't understand why women being prized is demeaning, because in the feminine tales, males are often useless figures (unless they are there for procreational purposes), which could be seen as sexist if one were to get nitpicky about it. Yes there are men who come to the aid of women, but it is symbolic of the protection of life. I think it's actually sexist to try to exclude men from the equation. Of course there are tales where women save themselves, save others, but there are also tales where she is saved by men or other women. I don't have a problem with this at all. The male myths aren't about going out and getting themselves a woman lol That's not it at all. The point is he needs to be worthy of being the master of life, can he cope with the trials? If he saves the world, he gets the girl. It's not about prize, the girl IS the world, she is the symbol of life and she is his equal. That's the thing, you'll not find more equality than you will in myth. It's literal interpretations that do all of the damage. It's the symbolic you should concern yourself with. If the symbolism is sexist, then yes, discard it, and believe me, there are some. Women have been practically executed from the Bible. Mary (both) and Eve are the only notable leftovers, but something that may interest you is that historians are aware that there were once female prophets in the Bible! It was a certain religious figure, I forget his name, about a thousand years ago who absolutely loathed and detested women, it is he that went about eradicating the role of women in the Bible. He had to leave in certain important female roles, like Eve and both Marys, and other female roles that didn't matter, but he removed the female prophets, who had their own books and chapters. It's frustrating because there is no evidence of those chapters, yet, the only proof there is is that they did exist and were removed. Unbelievably frustrating. Eve and Mary Magdalene are both seen as 'negative' figures, again, comes down to interpretation as Eve is most certainly NOT a negative figure mythologically speaking. Mary, the mother of Christ is the only positive but it's because she was the mother of god, so she couldn't very well be left out. But think of all those other tales we'll never get to know, and how they would have seriously changed modern western society's opinion on women. Such a shame. So yes, there are those that have tried to undermine women and their role into "do as you are told" obedient possessions, rather than spirited, intuitive partners in crime. And that's what myth's about. The majority I have seen are not sexist at all, it is just that in media, in films, the typical male pattern has been done to death. Bear in mind, all of the myth and fairytales are for a different time, not for ours. The literal front of it is completely different to life as we know it, so it's only the symbolic that we can pluck at and make relevant. The truth of the matter is we need these symbols to be wrapped in modern clothing so that people appreciate and accept them, because its true that people take the face value first before letting the symbol and inner meaning strike a chord with them. I'm just someone who always digs until they find the meaning lol I don't let the cover offend me. And don't worry, you'll never offend me Liv I love talking about myth, in all aspects. |
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