Gun Control

[Crouton]

I often see the debate that if guns were taken away, Americans would start stabbing people. Stabbing is horrible yes, and can kill but, but you can't really honestly compare a stabbing spree to a shooting spree. They are SO different. With a stabbing spree you have to be close to the victims, it takes longer, it's easier to approach/apprehend an attacker, people are more likely to survive a stabbing than a shooting, a stabber can't harm multiple people at once from a distance etc etc.

The list goes on about how different they are and stabbing is always far less fatal on a large/mass scale than shooting is. In China last year someone went on a stabbing spree, and many people were injured but no one actually died. If it was a gun I think it would be much different. And it's true that three of Elliot Rodgers victims were stabbed to death, but that was in close quarters inside their dorm room. Imagine someone trying to kill dozens of people by stabbing throughout say, a whole school or a parking lot, or a theatre.

Sorry for the mini rant. I just see so many people comparing stabbing to shooting a lot and I honestly can't tell if they are being serious about that comparison or not. Shooting is so much worse for so many reasons.

[Liv the Librarian]

Does it really matter whether it's stabbing or shooting? I don't personally think so. The issue, at the bone of it all, is that America has a lot of psychological issues that come from SO many different things, and all of that leads to stabbings, shootings, and bombings. Take away one outlet of murder [guns] and it either a)won't go away because illegal guns are easy to obtain or b)just lead to another outlet. Guns are not the issue in America, and I am firm believer in that. We don't value life very much here. I mean, it's really disgusting and disheartening, but it's true. ANd sure, there's plenty of other places that are worst, but for a first world country to be as bad as we are with shootings etc, it just really points to there being some bigger underlying issue and I personally think a lot of that is mental health, and taking away guns won't solve it.

[Crouton]

In a way it does matter, because one can cause damage on a huge scale and the other can't. To me I just think it's hard to compare them. Stabbing and shooting are two very different things. I by no means think stabbing is good, that would be insane, people get killed all the time by stab wounds, I just think it's weird that people compare the two so often. I've seen it hundreds of times, people saying "Well, if guns were banned people would just stab more". Yes, maybe they would but there is a HUGE difference.

You can't stab a large group of people quickly and from a distance like you can with guns, which means going on mass killing sprees in public areas which is an increasing problem in America would be almost impossible with knives. I guess I'm just kind of tired of hearing people use stabbing as an excuse to keep guns when the two are so different from each other that comparing them is almost laughable. I understand the issue is huge and that there should be more of a focus on mental health, but I was just focusing on that one argument because of how often I see it haha.

[TAZ]

why can't you stab a large group of people quickly?
our 9 man squad took out a platoon, in melee, in under 2 minutes.

[Crouton]

Yeah a trained army personal. Most of the people who go on these shooting rampages are teenagers, or young people with social/life issues, it's very rarely someone with army training. Also in reality imagine a big area like a school, or a shopping mall, or even a movie theatre. Are you honestly telling me that you think the average person with no combat training can do just as much damage with a knife in one of these types of areas as someone with one or multiple guns (which in America could mean semi-automatic rifles).

[Liv the Librarian]

There were recently two shootings at a navy base here in the US. Murders here aren't limited to teenagers and the socially outcast. America has a huge mental health issue. Guns and knives are equally dangerous, in my opinion, and it doesn't take much to learn how to use one efficiently.

Banning guns isn't going to solve any problems. And people are comparing knife killings and shootings because they're both murder. You can't tell me that they're not comparable.

People don't seem to understand how things work in the US. Our country was founded by not listening to "the man", and has continued to thrive on that whole "you can't tell me what to do" attitude since it was founded. Look at every single thing that was banned in our country, and then look at the number of people who do those things anyway. Look at bad when alcohol was banned. Look at banning marijuana, gay marriage, and many more things to come that are being slowly allowed in the country. Banning things isn't a step toward progress, it's a step away from it. Not allowing guns doesn't make your people more civilized, it makes them find more creative ways to kill the people they're going to kill, especially in a place as mentally unsound as an American's mind. We have sever mental health stigma in this country, and that's where the root of all of this lies. The mental health of our people and the skewed views on it.

[Crouton]

I guess it's different in Aus. Since we changed the gun laws there has still been gun crime, but ever since the gun laws there hasn't been one single mass shooting. In America it feels like there's one every month. I would much rather take stricter gun laws over lots of mass shootings any day, even if some people do feel like their freedom is being restricted. I just found this quote regarding mass gun killings VS mass knife attacks which is sort of along the line of what I'm saying.

"And although, tragically, three young men were killed after being stabbed by the killer in Santa Barbara, perhaps the clearest comparison between gun violence and knife violence is provided by looking at the attack that occurred at a Chinese school in the Henen Province the very same day as the [heinous crime at Sandy Hook Elementary]. Twenty-three students were attacked in Henen and none died – as opposed to 20 murdered at Sandy Hook Elementary. Or how about the 22 injured in a knife attack at a school in Pittsburgh this past April? Nobody died there either."

[Liv the Librarian]

I see what you're saying, but I still don't think that just because people aren't always dying from knives doesn't mean that it still isn't an issue/wouldn't become a HUGE issue if guns were banned.

And it is different in Aus than it is the US. That's what I'm trying to say. Just because a law works in one country doesn't mean it'll work elsewhere. There aren't mass shootings here daily or even monthly.

[Crouton]

That article I posted before said the statistics show that in the US there have been roughly two mass shootings every month for the past 5 years, which is kind of crazy. We have to remember that the definition of mass shooting is killing four or more people. I know that there will always be gun violence, and always be knife violence, that's for sure, the reason I bring it up is strictly talking about mass killings and massacres. Which is what I've been saying the whole time. I think you got confused and thought I was talking about general knife and gun violence, but I'm specifically talking about massacres. And when it comes to those comparing knives and guns are completely different things.

[TAZ]

if someone is going to kill, they'll kill. bayonet, knife, firearm, saucepan, wire, motorcycle spoke (drive it into the base of the skull, from behind), doesn't make a difference.
the difference is that through a scope it is very easy to disassociate that what you are seeing is a living person. you line someone up, it's just a shape. The thought process of killing at a distance is minimal.
knives are up close and personal, theres an actual, drug like, rush when you do it. BUT... it takes a lot more guts to attempt, you place yourself within reach of an opponent who may well be more skilled, more dangerous than you, you may miss, partially or completely, and allow the opponent to incapacitate you. most people do not use knives properly, they either overextend a thrust, or swing. you do that in a life or death situation you better not miss.

[Crouton]

Again, I'm talking about mass killings and massacres. Have you ever heard of someone killing people en mass in a big public space with a saucepan? Mass stabbings have happened in the past but it's a tiny fraction compared to mass shootings, especially in the US which has more mass shootings than anywhere else in the developed world.

[Liv the Librarian]

Here is a comprehensive list of mass shootings from 1982-2013.

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AswaDV9q95oZdG5fVGJTS25GQXhSTDFpZXE0RHhUdkE#gid=0

This data is taken from here www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data, where you can see the type of gun.

We can argue over knife killings vs shootings all day, but that's not what this topic is about, it's about gun control. You can see by that list that Mass shootings have, overall, increased from the 80's (though in 2013 we had less than in 2012).

What I am trying to point out to you is that it's very clearly got nothing to do with gun control. Our gun laws haven't changed that much in the last 30 years, meaning that there is clearly something going on in our country, which to me CLEARLY points to mental health. You want to control mass shootings? Control who can buy the guns, don't take away that right in it's entirely. It's literally in our constitution that we have the right to bear arms, and if there's one thing the American people love, it's our constitution. It's the only thing we have to wave in our government's face any time that something is going down.

I think everyone that wants to buy a gun needs to undergo extensive mental health testing and criminal record examination. I don't think I can even own a gun in IL because if they looked at my record they will see that I went to jail when I was 17 (granted it was for underage drinking), but I also stayed in a mental hospital when I was 19 for a week and I'm recorded as being bipolar, meaning that I would be viewed as unstable and be unable to own a gun. Which is more than fine with me because I am not a fan of guns at all. What I am a fan of is people not looking at mass shootings in America and blaming the government for not banning guns. I don't even LIKE our government but I can recognize that this is not an issue with them, it's an issue with mental health stigma and not enough people get help for their problems or take things like schizophrenia and bipolar or even your basic depression seriously enough.

[Crouton]

I know the topic is about gun control in general, but since so many people saying "if guns are taken away people will stab instead" then I feel like talking about mass shootings vs mass stabbings is a valid conversation within this topic.

Also that link is horrifying. I knew it was bad but seeing it all laid out like that is really scary, especially since it lists the total victims. I agree that there should be background checks for everyone to own a gun, isn't that what Obama tried to do but it didn't pass? I thought he tried to pass really simple laws like limits on ammo and extensive background checks but even those things didn't get through. Also, since I don't live in the US I have no idea how much of a big issue mental health is, but out of curiosity how often is it talked about? I feel like it's spoken about heaps whenever people go on a shooting but aside from that situation is it usually a big topic?

Also I think you should watch these videos. They highlight a lot of facts about American gun laws and Australian gun laws that I didn't know in a really clear way, the videos are also funny too, I liked them a lot and found them very informative.

[Firiath]

Just a thought... I've never used a gun before, I've never even held one before. All I know about guns is from films, video games, and people who are/were in the military and told me about them. But if you gave me a loaded gun in a crowded place, and I seriously wanted to kill random people, I could just pull the trigger and probably cause a massacre. Just like that.
Give me a knife instead, and I could harm someone who isn't paying attention, and with a little "luck" one or two more people until I'd be taken down. If I attacked someone head-on with a gun, I could kill that person. If I tried that with a knife, I'd be disarmed easily and wouldn't be able to harm anyone.

A second thought, and this is something TAZ briefly mentioned: If someone wants to kill, he/she will do it, no matter what. Okay, let me think about this. If I wanted to murder someone right now, what could I do? I've got a couple of kitchen knives here that I could use, and who knows, maybe I could kill someone with one of my frying pans. (And I'd probably fail trying to murder someone with those "weapons".) But I wouldn't know where to get a gun. Nobody I know owns a gun, and although I know there's a store in town that sells hunting equipment and therefore probably also guns, I wouldn't get one without a license. Crap, my hypothetical massacre has been prevented. Because even if I knew I could kill just one person with a knife (if that person wasn't paying attention), I'd have to get my hands dirty. And I can imagine that killing someone with a knife, or one's own hands, has a much stronger emotional impact than pulling a trigger.
Most (if not all) of the last gun massacres in Germany were caused by people who had contacts to Schützenvereine. And although massacres don't even occur half as often here as in the US, I still think these kinds of marksmen's clubs should be abolished.



And btw... Thanks for posting those videos, Crouton! What I learned from them was enlightening, amusing, and ludicrous (with a strong negative connotation) at the same time!

[TAZ]

1 death, 2 deaths, 20 deaths, it doesn't matter how many you kill.
it doesn't have to be a massacre to be bad