Gun Control

[Crouton]

This is the type of debate that usually get's out of hand, but I figure why not, the forum needs activity. Everyone here seems more mature than people on other forums I've been on anyway.

So when it comes to gun control what are your thoughts? Do you like the laws in your own country? Would you change it? Do you own a gun yourself?

I personally like Australia's gun laws, although if anything they could be a bit stricter. In 1996 in Australia there was a huge shooting/massacre, in which 35 people were killed and even more wounded. It is known as the Port Author massacre. From almost the second that the shooting took place, our Government went into action writing new gun laws. Including things like extensive background checks before buying weapons, limited rounds for weapons and banning semi-automatic assault rifles (since really, who outside of soldiers in the army really needs one?).

Since that day there has not been one single mass shooting or school shooting of any kind. Which is pretty cool, so those changes must be having some good effect. Although, people are still getting guns on the black market here and occasional shootings between gangs etc do take place, so I feel like if anything our gun laws could be stricter/enforced harder.

[Taliesin]

I did not like John Howard at all. I still don't. But credit where credit's due. Tighter gun laws was the one good thing he did for this country in my opinion. There really is no need for anyone to own a gun unless it's what their job requires. Even then it should be highly regulated. Guns are awful devices that have their uses in only a very limited range of situations. As such, their ownership should be limited too.

[Crouton]

Yeah, I was young then so I don't remember a lot of Howard, but I respect him for these gun laws, especially since he was up against so much negativity towards the idea at the time. He did the right thing to protect Australians. I agree that people don't need guns. Unless you work in the army, or are a policemen then I don't see why any ordinary every day citizen should ever need one. I guess hunting is one which I am against. Hunting never seems to cause too many problems though when it comes to human violence. You never hear of hunters shooting people (very rarely anyway), their only victims are innocent animals.

[Taliesin]

I think it's the fact that they're such destructive devices that gives me the willies. I get nervous around those guards taking money to and from those armoured vans. I don't want them suddenly deciding they don't like the look of me and ending my life over something as crass as keeping money safe. No. The fewer people who have access to guns the better, and of those that do, they better have had a super rigorous background check. Yes, and I mean the kind of check where even the number of hairs on their backsides has been counted and noted. You cannot be too careful when it comes to something like gun ownership.

[Crouton]

I get so tired of people saying "guns don't kill people, people do". Umm... guns were CREATED to kill. It's their very purpose as a weapon. That's what they are for. I'm also sick of the NRA in America blaming things like video games for gun violence rather than well... guns. It's very hard to kill someone with a gaming controller. That's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the NRA group though.

[TAZ]

I've sold my rifles, not for any belief that they are bad, simply for money.
I still have access to an assortment through my father, who is a land owner, though these are low powered .22 rifles and anti-snake shotguns.

i'm a qualified range safety inspector, with a father who took me hunting from age 8.
i joined my first target shooting club at 12
i got my first very own rifle at age 8 (.22 repeater )
i got my shooters permit at 12
i got my first roo shooters permit at 24
i only have an 82% accuracy with the Austeyr,so never got better than a B pass in the army, but a 98% accuracy with an M-60 MMG (this is not a good thing, a machine gun isnt designed to put all the bullets in the same place, you want to spray them a little and keep the enemy heads down so your flanking force can get into position)

do i feel everyone should have (a right to have)firearms on the premises? no
do i feel land (property) owners have the right to have rifles on the premises? yes
do i feel everyone has the right to enjoy firearms responsibly should they wish? yes

how then, if i do not agree with firearms in the house do i propose we allow everyone to enjoy the sport? rifle/target ranges.

army barracks are manned 24/7 and have a secure, guarded armoury. in Australia many rifle ranges are maintained by members of the local reserve batallion. for example in Toowoomba, where i live, the local batallion 9/25 RQR, (an amalgamation of the local 25th batallion and the northern 9th batallion) provides training and security for the local rifle range on rifle range road.
once a month members of the batallion hire themselves out to run training courses for civillians.
the rifle range it'self does not have an armoury and so members of the gun club provide their own firearms, how these weapons are stored is up to the individual owners. what i advocate is that "gun owners" within cities, who do not have a license to carry handguns, must store their weapons at the secure armoury on army barracks.
these weapons would then need to be signed for, eliminating weapon theft as a means of procurement.
it will also stop legal firearms being in the hands of intoxicated individuals.

[Crouton]

Storing weapons at an army barracks does sound like a good idea. Those are the types of lengths we should go to when it comes to deadly weapons. At least gun crime in our country isn't too bad compared to others due to already strict laws but I think more can always be done.

[TAZ]

yes, for a long time i had illegal weaponry (eg: full auto capable assault rifle) simply because i wanted to and no one was going to tell me i couldnt cut down a tree with my rifle if i so wished.
the differences for me is that a small caliber .22 is not a weapon, it is a tool.
a mid ranged 5.56mm austeyr is a weapon, a 7.62mm M-60 MMG is a weapon. these are devices designed to pump out a lot of firepower very quickly.
a bolt action .22 will fire 1 shot per depress/reload cycle.
if we go higher, i had a 44-40 lever action battle of the little bighorn commemorative. (canadian oak stock, nickel plating, custer on one side, sitting bull on the other)aside from the original test fire at manufacture it had never been fired. i cleaned it regularly, but never wanted to ruin it. once upon a time it was considered a weapon, (a decent shot can pump out 1-2 rounds a second) it has the disadvantage of needing to be fired in at least a kneeling position. this makes it far less effective as a weapon than even a bolt action, which, while slower to fire, may be fired in the prone position.

the regulations in australia go a long way in differentiating which firearms are tools and which are weapons, we don't have bears here, or elephants, or rhinos, or anything else requiring a high caliber rifle, .22 is perfectly fine for hunting purposes. when we do get the occasional rogue Boar and we don't have the dogs to take it down ourselves, well, every single country town in the country has a group of young blokes that love to pig chase with dogs and knives....

it is partially 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' i've never been on a farm that didnt have at least 4-5 rifles stored, but i've never killed anyone outside of military service.

[Crouton]

I feel like it's different on farms. In cities and big towns is usually where the most gun violence happens anyway, not out on farms. And everyone knows most farmers keep guns anyway, since sometimes they need them, it's different when you live in the city or suburbs, there's just no need at all for an everyday person to have one. I personally see all guns as weapons, rather than tools, but I know that viewpoint changes a lot between everyone which is fine.

Just out of curiosity Jim, your talking about things like rouge boars and needing weapons. When would you need to shoot the boar in this situation? I assume that if a boar wandered onto your property if you just waited it would eventually move on, so no need to shoot, but why need a weapon? Is it for if you are out in the bush and one corners you or something like that?

[TAZ]

the problem with Boars is the damage they do to the property. they destroy the watering holes, turning them into slop puddles of mud, they knock down fences, they carry mites and ticks,worms etc. they are aggressive and will kill domesticated boars, and you cannot legally sell any pups from a wild boar, so if a wild boar gets to your sows you've lost an entire breeding season.
the damage they can do is rather severe and can be quite costly.
These are the reasons wild pigs are considered pests.

Roo's are similar in the damage they can do, but moreso the numbers they travel in. 1 roo is no problem, 400+ roo's are a big problem. being native it's difficult to get a license to shoot roo's, to the extent that farmers don't bother, its easier to know someone that knows someone (etc) that has a roo shooters license and can get a culling permit.
just to be 100% clear, australian hunters don't hunt roo's(legally anyway), licensed, experienced roo shooters do, and they are responsible to the department of wildlife to provide evidence of numbers culled. a roo shooter will never take more than the approved allotment, since the fines are never worth the bribe that land owners are willing to pay, not to mention the loss of income due to loss of license.

the other native animal that is "hunted" are Dingo's. unfortunately in areas where dingo's are a problem even hunting cannot adequately control their numbers, hence we have the yearly dingo baiting in western queensland. while considered cruel by many, the government has decided that the damage dingo's do (in large numbers)is so excessive that once a year baits are dispersed in wilderness areas. local land owners are forewarned in an attempt to allow them time to secure their dogs, (though many still do end up killed)

[Crouton]

Hmm, I can see how these animals harm property, but I still find it sad that we have to kill them in large numbers. Sad and also ironic. Humans are the most damaging animal on the entire planet, we destroy almost everything in our path, poison the air, the water, destroy the lands and the oceans. We hunt animals to extinction and take more than we need from the Earth. And yet when some kangaroo's step onto farmers lands suddenly it's them which are a threat and they must be killed. As I said in a way I can understand why it happens, but it doesn't stop me from being upset by it and seeing it in a very ironic way, since the most destructive being on the planet feels the need to kill innocent creatures as they are bothered by them. The damage dingoes or kangaroos do is nothing compared to the damage human beings inflict on this planet every single day.

[foinikas]

I think Eddie Izzard said the best line on that subject,he was like "Give them weapons,just don't give them ammo."

Seriously though,my country has a crime problem but civilians are not allowed to have even tasers or pepper spray.Some do get gun licences if they are important people or they can prove that they're doing a job that is dangerous or something,but most people are not allowed to have any guns.Hunting rifles...yeah they are allowed to have for hunting.In villages and rural areas people tend to have hunting rifles for hunting and protection.

However...in the Crete,down south in Greece,people usually have a lot of guns and don't give a dime about the laws...lol

It's kinda like a tradition there especially in the rural areas of the island.They have a lot of old guns from WWI and WWII as family heirlooms,like MP-40s and rifles...but they've a lot of modern pistols,revolvers even AKs too.Crete is infamous for it.A lot of people have been killed at wedding celebrations because of the "tradition" of men shooting their guns in the air or...wherever a drunk macho guy points the gun at and shoots.

[TAZ]

like i said, for a long time i had illegal weapons. i've posted photos of them on tff from time to time

[Crouton]

I know gun control is a serious issue in the US, but I found this article pretty funny.

The link isn't working so I will paste it.

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

ISLA VISTA, CA—In the days following a violent rampage in southern California in which a lone attacker killed seven individuals, including himself, and seriously injured over a dozen others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said North Carolina resident Samuel Wipper, echoing sentiments expressed by tens of millions of individuals who reside in a nation where over half of the world’s deadliest mass shootings have occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence than those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this guy from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what he really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past five years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”

[Liv the Librarian]

The problem in America is that we're a bunch of hicks. And hicks love their guns. In the cities, most people don't want guns around because of gang violence. But in the more rural areas (which most of America is rural, or at least moderately so) they use them for protection and sport. I think there should be a law in place about having guns in city limits. Illinois just passed a concealed carry law, which lets everyone with a FOID card carry a gun on their person.

Honestly, I'm up in the air about the issue. I don't fancy guns too much, but my boyfriend is obsessed with them, so is his dad, so is my uncle... I know loads of people who have guns legally and enjoy the shooting range. I know a gun is a weapon, but honestly, guns don't kill people, people kill people. The issue in America isn't even gun control, it's violence. We're so damned violent that even if they took away our guns, we'd just start stabbing people (but who am I kidding, if they took our guns, we'd keep them anyway). Black markets are a big thing here as well.